* But let's take your logic on face value and try to make a workable proposal. Probably the best way to handle your proposed idea is for every woman to have some kind of implant that would notify the government when they had sex and take them into custody immediately, perhaps putting them in prisons or camps of some sort. If they were not impregnated they could be released after that could be determined. If they were, they would have to stay there until they bring the baby to term. After all, if a woman becomes pregnant and doesn't know it, they may injure that bundle of cells that you wish to require society to protect with the full force of the state by having a taste of wine, or taking an emergency contraceptive - of course in Penningtonworld we would have to ban the use of the birth control pill, which prevents fertilized eggs from implanting in the uterus. We could use the DEA to enforce this ban and prosecute any manufacturer of birth control pills just like any other illegal drug dealer. At any rate, if abortion is murder, having a glass of wine is assault, not having a nutritious diet is assault, and the birth control pill is attempted murder, right? I suppose you could license certain women to have children who have demonstrated somehow that they will be good little incubators, and have their medical records regularly checked by government agents instead of putting them in camps, but probably the camps are the only reliable way to protect those little bundles of cells. |
**Man, I hate it when someone other than me is running Penningtonworld! -- BrucePennington If you actually "take my logic" you would simply stop killing kids before they are born. How did the vaginal openning become the entry into constitutionally protected life? -- BrucePennington
**What are you talking about? I am not "killing kids before they are born" so I cannot stop, in fact I believe this phrase to be well beyond idiotic, but I'm accepting it for the purpose of figuring out how best we could enforce your legal proposal. I am merely taking your position that the state should criminalize abortion as murder to its logical conclusion. You are not merely proposing some pie in the sky philosophical debate - you wish for police officers to stop abortions, with machine guns if necessary. That is what the criminal law is. Murder is what people get the death penalty for. By saying human life begins at conception and ending it is murder, every birth control pill taken by a sexually active woman is murder. That's millions. (You really do love DeathRow, don't you? It'll sure be full by the time you're done!) Surely you do not wish for a criminal statute regarding murder to just sit on the books unenforced? Because if you do, what's the difference? If a police officer sees a rape victim or even someone who might have simply had sex with her husband headed to a clinic, shouldn't he arrest her and take her down for questioning? If he discovers that she has medical literature about abortion in her possession, isn't that evidence of her intent to murder the child her rapist has put inside her? If the police officer doesn't notice her until she's about to go into the doctor's office, shouldn't he draw his gun? If she goes in anyway, shouldn't he shoot to kill the doctor? Why not? He's about to commit murder! You are demanding a police state of enormous size and reach and you have the gall, the absolute gall to call it "conservative?" How about this for a conservative idea - the government shouldn't intrude upon people's private lives for someone else's religious ideas. If you and your church don't want women to have abortions, persuade them to join your church. The states with the highest rates of abortions are also those with the largest numbers of conservative Christians, so you are likely to have an uphill battle, but good luck.
**I think we are going to have to on the issue of whether abortion or EmbryonicStemCellResearch is murder. You mistake me, though, when you try to bring religion into the discussion. You have not heard me talk religion anywhere on this issue. I spent 20 yrs, 3months, prepared to defend my country and the constitution of the United States. If an unborn child is a human being with constitutionally protected rights, the government has a certain interest in what a woman and a doctor are doing in their "private lives." Your claim is as logical as saying "Here's a conservative idea for you - the government shouldn't intrude on people's private lives as they are killing their neighbors." AllLawsLegislateMorality. -- BrucePennington
** Again, you don't seem to have read what has been written. You are fixated on religion. Stop it. If we assume, ASSUME that ending life after conception is murder, as you demand that we do, as you insist that we do, as you pound your fists and screech that we must, there is a vast police state that would be necessary to enforce that criminal prohibition. A ban on birth control pills. Monitoring of hospitals. Monitoring of doctors and nurses and midwives. Monitoring of sexually active women. Perhaps even licensing of sexually active women. Millions of women on DeathRow just from the birth control issue alone. Here's another thought - if a woman neglects her prenatal care, and miscarries as a result, under your definition of murder, she would be guilty of manslaughter (called negligent homicide in some states.) Just because she couldn't afford health insurance that would adequately cover prenatal care - as millions of American women can't - you would slam her in a prison cell for ten to twenty years. And obviously to enforce this part of the "abortion is murder" criminal law, police would need access to insurance records, to doctors' notes, to pharmacist's records. And every woman who had sex would be a suspect. This is the world you are demanding. You may not know it's what you want, but it's what you are working for.
** No, Richard, this is very simple. Assuming abortion became illegal, and classified as murder, "millions" of women would quit having abortions. And, yes, just like murder, abortions would continue, but not in the numbers you pretend. Using your logic, that since abortions would still happen, we need to keep abortion legal -- since we know murders still happen, we should make murder legal. Making murder illegal certainly has driven murderers to do their deeds in secretive and horrible ways. If we made murder legal, then they could do it out in the open, in sanitary and painless ways. Caregivers and loved ones could be present for their last moments. Oh what a more caring and loving world it would be! (Oops! After re-reading, I can see that I got off on a tangent! It's a good point, though!) Concerning the ensuing "police state", Richard, we are already there. Police enforce murder laws of all flavor and definintion. -- BrucePennington
** First of all, I am not anyone named "Richard", and second of all, you again show your complete ignorance. Think for one second about how police would enforce a law that classified abortion as murder. That is what I have done in the above example, simply taken what you want, what you crave, what you pray for every night, and thought for one second about how it would look in the real world, something you have apparently never done. Birth control pills would have to be banned. Emergency contraception would be next. Any woman walking into a hospital, any woman who had sex with anyone, any victim of rape, husbands and wives whose contraceptives fail, millions upon millions of people in this country would be subject to arrest and interrogation and imprisonment just because their sex lives do not meet with your approval. You have simply decided not to read or respond to anything that was written on this page other than your own masturbatory ramblings. Think for one second, Bruce. Imagine yourself in the shoes of a police officer who sees a rape victim walking into a hospital carrying that rapist's child. She might be seeking an abortion. Under your law, that is the same as hiring a hitman. What would you do? Wiretap her doctor's office? Read her medical records? If she asks her doctor, or her husband, "what about terminating the pregnancy", would you put her in prison for twenty years for solicitation of murder? Yes, Bruce, you would. You can deny that you would but that is what you would do if you make abortion into murder. It would make miscarriages manslaughter and bad nutrition assault. And you have said nothing, nothing that indicates that you have put even one second of thought into what the legal arrangement you crave would do. If you don't want the police reading the medical records of every woman in the country, patrolling hospitals with guns, wiretapping conversations between women and their doctors, chasing birth control pills and emergency contraceptives the way they chase methampetamine and cocaine now, then you don't want abortion to be treated as murder. If you don't think women are mere incubators from the moment they have sex, if you think they're people instead, you don't want abortion to be treated as murder. Saying you support treating abortion as murder is making a legal proposal. And it appears you have not given any thought, not one second, to what kind of world that would create. You even think it would be a "conservative" world, despite needing a massive police presence capable of monitoring health care decisions made by all woman between ages 11 and 70, and having the ability to raid and spy on every ob/gyn doctor in the nation. That shows you know nothing, nothing at all, about the legal proposal you yourself have concocted in your feverish mind. Go back and re-read what I wrote above until you get it. Or just move your opinion to your user page where it won't bother anyone.